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Author Topic: Windev...  (Read 9958 times)

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PeterGreulich

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2013, 10:32:01 AM »

But now, I only log virtual hours in my Boeing B747-400 simulator, I am building myself  8)
Just do us all a favor, watch out for the virtual seawall when you land!

SwissCharles

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 01:17:35 AM »
 ;D when I was young and beautyful (nowadays I am just the 'and'  :'( ) during a tail dragger course (on a beautyful Piper Cub, btw) my flight instructor constantly reminded me to watch where I dragged my tail through  :o eehhmmm...on landing...on those small dirt strips in central Caliofornia...thats what I am talking about here, OK?!

[Caution: Rant On]
But jokes aside, this accident you are implying shows just how bad piloting poficiency has turned in these days. The average airline pilot isn't anymore an aviator, but just a button pusher - or to put it a bit more politely: a systems manager.

Imagine them (Asiana), trying to fly a visual approach in perfectly fine weather with only light wind on autopilot. They mis-selected a vertical nav option which prevented the autothrottle from advancing engine power once the airspeed decreased to below the minimum speed for this approach, without them noticing. Did anyone of thes 3 'Pilots' care to actually look aut the d@#ned window? Below 500 feet with this weight and momentum with the engine power still at idle (they need 5 seconds plus to deliver significant power), you are just along as payed passenger but not anymore as pilot  :-X

I know that I am getting old, but we took any chance we could to hand fly the thing. Flight management computers, Autopilots and Autothrottles can and do fail, are we then crashing just because of this?? Air France 447 is another - completely unnecessary accident happening due to similar reasons: 'Pilots' not aware that their aircraft is in a deep stall and still pulling the nose up and thus effectively prohibiting the aircraft to regain flying speed - I mean, this is basic stuff - and descending from 37'000 feet right into the drink. And all this just because an unreliable airspeed indication but otherwise fully functioning flight instruments...

But why is this so, you may ask? Training cost's time and money - how much are we paying for a flight nowadays? I flew from Paris to LA for about USD 1'100.- both ways!! Are we gonig to see muh more of these as such unnecessary crashes?
[Rant Off] Sorry for digressing this far from the thread, but since you asked...  ;)

Charles

SwissCharles

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 06:42:29 AM »
Hi Marcel,

Weeelll, when cockpits don't have windows anymore, this will be the day that I quit from flying - being it as passenger or as pilot  :'(

I think, that the industry (namely so the airlines, to a lesser degree the manufacturers) do have a somewhat hidden agenda on this. First - they save lots of money on training (not only the pilot's but also the maintenance engineer's). Second - as a result of this, the accident rate is going up with accident reports as a logical consequence stating pilots error or maintenance error more and more . Third - the call for unmanned airliners will become louder and louder and Fourth - profits in airline business will increase for a short time, since there will only be an operator at a console somewhere in a climatized office. Well I don't want to be a passenger in a big radio controlled aircraft - we in IT do know how reliable computeres and software are, don't we  :-[ :-X

But since airlines are ever so creative in trying to cut cost, there is now another widely spread scheme in place: Pay to Fly! This means, that the pilot pays to get training on the aircraft types he is going to fly for that airline! I have seen deals, where a pilot was asked to fork over some $20K just to get a type rating plus a certain amount of flight hours. Go figure... I feel very sorry for these mostly bright young people wanting to fulfill their dream of flying.

Air traffic control gets more and more complex as well (you mentioned Schiphol - a very professional bunch of people there!). But I find this a complexity well manageable, together with flow control measures et al. You, as a pilot, just have to have some contingency planning in place (i.e. fuel planning), since there can be unforeseen delays en route or/and foul weather at any time.

Re cost: It's the competition which rules price most imo. Minneapolis - compared to Florida (Miami or St. Pete et al) which is served by many trunk routes with many services - is a much 'thinner' connection thus not very attractive, thus less competition and thus more expensive. And there are the so called low cost carriers with their very sophisticated yeld management. The closer the flight the lesser the still free seats the more expensive the fare. With the charters, its exactly the other way around: the closer the flight, the cheaper the fare - this way, they power sell remaining and empty seats at or even below cost.

One has to see, that the airline business nowadays is a penny business. Earnings of a few cents per seat-mile are quite common. That's imho why airlines are tempted to cut corners in areas not easliy comprehended by the paying passengers. Of course - each and every airline is asserting vehemently that it is putting 'safety first' ... yeah well...

But, as an old hand was saying to me many many moons ago: If you think that safety is expensive - go try an accident....

Charles
*who still loves flying  8)*

PeterGreulich

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 06:55:39 AM »
Quote
Isn't it right Charles, that some of the newer planes don't even HAVE windows to look through anymore?

Never heard of that, but I do believe that nuclear attack bombers (B-52, B-1, B-2) have shielded windows that the pilot can employ. The idea is that as the pilots are  flying and nuclear bombs are exploding all over the landscape, they can close the shields over the windows, still fly, but not be blinded by the nuclear flash(es). I have read that a 20-megaton bomb (not sure Russia even has these any more) exploded 40-miles from your location (on a clear day or night) would permanently blind you - and that's on the ground. In the air you would be at risk at even longer distances.

Does that cheer you up?  8) (not cool, shades)

factotum

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2013, 10:04:46 AM »
Link to latest screenshots (5 pages) of Windev, Webdev and Mobile - There are a few token photos of men in there :)

http://www.windev.com/windev/img/screenshot-version-18/index.html

It just looks so slick...

leroy

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2013, 05:26:27 AM »
People here might find this conversation interesting:

http://27130.foren.mysnip.de/read.php?27131,164389

It is people complaining about licensing, bugs etc. The conversation is very familiar.


jkletrovets

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 06:50:06 AM »
People here might find this conversation interesting:

http://27130.foren.mysnip.de/read.php?27131,164389

It is people complaining about licensing, bugs etc. The conversation is very familiar.

Thanks for posting this Michael.  This gives me a tad bit of pause.  I have been pretty interested in WinDev as a possible alternative but I do not want to get into another similar situation as with Alpha.


SwissCharles

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 08:23:47 AM »
Well, well, well....
I turned my back for a few days and what do I have to see?  An abundance of Swiss clichées tstststs... As we went from Banksters to Swiss Army knives to Milka cows we now happily arrived at the Alphorn   :o  !
Well, I had to see this coming, hadn't I??? Only thing now missing are the watches (one of my other way too many interests   :-\ ).

Hey, imagine the sound an Alphorn would make, properly taped to the side of a 747, mouthpiece facing forward, doing mach 0.91 holy smoke  8)

Now, since I do not have any commercial interest in WinDev, I will refrain from sending out any goodies. This would have to be the task of PC Soft. How about serving us some French clichées? As a few hints for them: A bottle of Burgundy's finest, or some Nougat de Montélimar, or some tasty Brie cheese, or some big size posters of the ladies they sport on almost any page of their material  8) .. huh?  :-* :-*

Re the thread linked by leroy: I find those gentlemens there - at least compared to Alpha Five - complaining on a rather high niveau. As I have stated before, I am exclusively working with the DT version of their product (WD) so I can't say anything on WB and WM. Up to now (working since about 9 month with it) I really haven't found many bugs. I don't believe that I just might have been lucky, either - I really do explore rather advanced concepts in it and haven't yet hit an impasse I couldn't circumnavigate. Let alone the fact that A5 doesn't even come close to such concepts to begin with..

Most of the complaints seem to be concerning buggy first releases of new versions. Why oh why have people to install each and every new release the first second it is out? It ist rue, that PCS (like almost all the others) can't, for reasons we discussed already, have each one tested extensively like in the good old days. M$ and others set the stage to use the users as beta testers long ago.
Personally (like most of you, I am pretty sure), I never ever install the latest release right away - I very much appreciate sleeping well, you know  ;) . PCS released their latest and greatest English v 18 in June which had quite a lot of bugs for sure. Now, after a second patch to build 62j almost all are gone. Such is live, I dare to say.

Another complaint is language based - some of the english speaking developers hold a grudge against PCS that their LST (periodic magazine with DVD containing tech tipps and full blown examples, components et al - ever heard of such things from AS?) - are in French only. Or that it takes PCS a few month from release of the French version to roll out the English version (do they ever fathom how many code lines are to be changed in such a complex tool, not to talk about all the manuals? You can go to their  online help (sky high above AS's disastrous Alphapedia) and go see there for yourself: http://doc.windev.com/en-US/?productversion=XXA150061R The same help can be held locally on one's own machine... While the other products presented here as alternatives each hold their own virtues, I must say that WD's richness of features and interfaces still appeal to me most - but that's just me, your mileage will vary, depending on where you came from ...

Perhaps, from my other thread asking about the owner/programmer (or as Dave? even more aptly calls them user/developer) in hindsight one could have gotten the impression that I am unhappy with my decision to go ahead with WinDev - well that's clearly not so. As John rightly pointed out, it was the steepnes of the learning curve which caused me to think back about my beginnings as a user/developer. That the learning curve is/was steep is not WinDev's fault either. One can't stay ahead of the ever increasing evolutions in development without taking some of the brunt involved in learning new techniques. It's perhaps a problem for the user/developer having to run a business while climbing this learning curve, that makes staying abreast rather difficult. From said thread I gather that there isn't (and probably never was) a solution that allows building apps without coding by just concentrating on the business rules.

What I pondered over though, was the question what I would do if I had to do a web app: would I look for another tool or would I go with WebDev? As it stands now, I would most probably go with the latter. Even though, WD and WB are different in many respects, the code base and the concepts are imo very close to one another.

Charles from the land of banks, cows, cheese (oh that one is still missing), alphorns and watches  ;D

jkletrovets

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 08:46:02 AM »
Thanks for posting your insights and experiences Charles.  I appreciate it.

Regards,

Jeff

leroy

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2013, 08:49:05 AM »
JK- I, too, am very intrigued by the web and mobile platform. While there is a lot documentation, it is sporadically written and non-specific. I just spent some time reading the mobile tutorial and many of the pages were dedicated to covering pocketpc. Obviously it was written a few years ago but there is very little on ios and android. The brochures have cool little blurbs but not much else. Its hard to tell which feature really belongs to which development platform/OS. For example, off-line data. There is a video saying it can done, the tutorial shows it for windows pocket-pc, but doesn't cover android or ios. Tried to download the express version - it gave me version 17 not 18. Little stuff like that make me wonder about the products consistency.

At least there is an app in the apple app store written by PCSOFT with windev.  So many of these rads claim to be able to publish the app store, but don't have any examples of native apps that you can install and run. Just some web apps that look like native apps.

asawyer13, I've used in.de a little and think I will use it in the future too. It is a little limited right now. (Native features - vibrate, notifications etc) But it is good in many ways.  The shift/drag thing can be confusing. Try one, see if it worked if not try the other way. What didn't you like about the webdevmobile? I feel like I have gotten to the point where each one of these solutions is almost there, but not quite.

jkletrovets

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2013, 09:10:40 AM »
Tried to download the express version - it gave me version 17 not 18. Little stuff like that make me wonder about the products consistency.

I thought the same exact thing.  Also, the list of real web sites they provide as samples (that have been developed with WebDev)....I could only get about 1 in 4 of them to do anything.  Not impressive.  That being said, for the desktop side it does look enticing.

Wonder how easy it would be to use WinDev for desktop app and then use some sort of replication feature of the backend database and then use In.de for the web / mobile side if an app required it?

Thanks,

Jeff

leroy

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2013, 10:07:05 AM »
That is kind of my plan. I use mostly ms-sql and mysql. One database, different front ends - web, android and ios. Some RADs allow a sharing of code between the different platforms but my experience is that the user experience is so different. I can kind of design the same for ipad and the web but everything else breaks down pretty quickly based on screen size.

This brochure http://www.windev.com/windevmobile/ebook/index.html#/18/ shows the features with a tag for android, ios, win8 etc. There is not feature parity. For example, the camera is available on android but not ios. That is a big feature gap. Another is network connectivity - can you tell if the device is connected to the network. That is a requirement for App store approval for apps that run off of the network. windev can't do that on iOS. I don't know why it can't but the brochure says it can't. version 19 will probably change that, but that's a year away and will cost another $500 in upgrade.

The elephant in the room for most of the web-based RADs that claim they can do iOS with phonegap is that Apple won't approve an app that just pulls a webpage from a server and show it with a native wrapper. I've had that conversation with other Alpha users. We're waiting to hear back from Alpha on that. In.de and webdev don't seem to have that issue. The controls are rendered on the device and the data is pulled remotely.

preston

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 11:50:23 PM »
Reading through this I can see that others feel the way I do and are not happy with Alpha at present.

I looked briefly at WinDev last year when the whole subscription thing came up with Alpha and the forced upgrade to V11 in order to serve my customers that purchased Windows 8 machines.

When I first tried WinDev 17 express I remember following the tutorial and not getting the same results but I do not remember why. I have downloaded it again to my new computer and will give it a look.

I did read in this thread that it requires a dongle. I have no problem with that if it is required only for the developers machine. I would have a problem with that if a dongle was required on any of my customers machines that where running a app that I had created a executable for.


preston

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2014, 08:58:19 AM »
Preston,
Yes the dongle is only needed for the developer. Any apps created do not need it.

May I ask what type of apps you're wanting to create? Desktop?? Web?? Mobile??

 I don't do that much Desktop, but Instant Developer can create apps that run on a desktop that are really web apps, so that there is absolutely no different between the desktop experience and the web app experience. It's not a true .exe but works very well. WinDev requires pretty much a complete rewrite for desktop, web and mobile. You can use some functions between all 3 but that's about it.

If you would like more information, just PM me and we can chat.

Alan

Right now I write a desktop app. It is an app for a specific industry that there are literally millions of companies in around the world. The industry uses off the shelve blanks that can be customized specifically for the end customer. The item number never changes from what it was for the blank. So the app takes an item number from a supplier, allows the user to add endless variations of customization to it and then generates a price for that item based on quantity breaks and customization charges set by the user. It is basically a product quoting and invoicing app on steroids. It uses very complex mathematical calculations.

That said, the industry is full of the biggest cheapskates in the world. They will do anything to not spend a penny so it would also be imperative that I can protect my app from being used by people who did not pay for it or in a way they did not pay for.

I eventually wanted to also offer the app as a SaaS for those who want more mobility but also with Alpha that would take a total rewrite and learning curve on my part.

So I want to create an app that is pay per machine and would also like to create an app that can be used as SaaS. If that makes sense.


« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 09:06:35 AM by preston »

GinoKeagle

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Re: Windev...
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2014, 01:40:42 AM »
Hi folks

As said on the other thread, I opened another one to answer a few questions re Windev...

Quote from: J. Kletrovets
I recently (today) spent about an hour on the solar panels site.  Now that seems REALLY impressive.  I realize it is a tad pricey - but boy does that look nice (and powerful).  Does anyone have any experience / thoughts on WinDev, WebDev or WinDev Mobile?

First of all: I do not have any connection to PS Soft other than being a customer of them.

Well I use WD (DT only at the moment) since last November. Here are a few observations in no particular order, fwiw:

It comes in 3 flavours: WinDev for DT, WebDev for Webapps and WD Mobile for, well, you guess it...
Each one can be had separately. You don't pay any royalties and no subscriptions. You can decide if you want to buy a new release or not. Each release (about once a year) brings a plethora of new features, new technologies they adapt, etc...  There are critics though, asking PC Soft to put in a maintenance release to address some of the long standing bugs. Normally, they advertize each new release as having + 918 new features  :o which they have, but they are counting them the french way (dont ask)  :D  But these are never the less very substantive: Being it a ribbon control you can use with your own windows, being it a time line control, etc...

Prices over at the US distributor http://www.windev-us.com when last checked in USD:
WD v. 18:Competition Exchange 1'190.-- (Update 715.--) -> this seems to be the prices for the other variants as well, if you buy them separately...
WD/WB/WM (all 3 products together: 2'395..- (Update 1'570.--)

Licensing is per hardware usb-dongle and lets you install WD on as many computers as you wish, provided, that you take the dongle with you.

Generally, I found WD to be a stable product, providing many ways to work around a bug. Also they provide free technical support which I had to try once and got a relevant answer within a day - and that was after I bought the software...
But each IDE has it's own quirks and pitfalls etc, no surprise there, but they are in places where they do not disturb my specific use.

A big plus: You use all the same programming language (a cross between VB and Clipper, if you will), regardless if its for a web app, a desktop or a smartphone. In WebDev and WinDev Mobile, WLanguage Code is automatically converted to JavaScript - not like Alpha, where you already on the Desktop have two different languages (xBasic and xDialog). 

The tool looked somewhat overwhelming at first, but that's not so much caused by the IDE as such, but by the vast number of features -namely the OOP related features made up the most part of the learning curve so far, not because of a bad implementation of these (in contrary!) but because this OOP stuff was all new to me.

In stark contrast to A5, you do have a very well written documentation and help system to boot (yes, you get 4 printed (!) manuals in a large box, together with the dongle and some goodies)

The only thing not (yet) at the same level as with A5 is the forum (well, Alpha's forum was hard to beat anyway, innit  ;) IMO it is/was? what kept A5 turning..)  Though the folks writing there (WD) seem to be a helpful bunch as well - its' just not as frequented as Alpha's one... Also, many contributors are not of English mother tongue what makes understanding the questions (and answers) sometimes a bit hard at first.
To get an overview of the community, got to http://wxlive.us/ From there you get links to a few very good blogs, one of them being NextAge Consulting where there are a few open source projects. The main forum is at http://27130.foren.mysnip.de/list.php?27131 Don't let yourself be put off by the spartan layout - after  you login, it gets a little bit better :-\ 

It is a French software (as can be easily seen by the fact that almost every page of the manuals  is garnered with young ladies... You know, it's a French thing... In the Anglo Saxon world, this may leave an impression of unprofessionalism, but make no mistake: The software blows A5 right out of the water. They publish a French and an English version of their product. It is translated very well, generally speaking, but some of the more 'nested' dialogs all of a sudden come in French ::)

Re Language: WD is very very well geared towards building multi-language applications. There are provisions to have messages (also those you put in code, not just message boxes and forms etc) in multiple languages in parallel. Mine e.g. are in English and German...

Compared to A5, WD is HUGE! Sure, it does have it's own quirks, but the product is much, much, more advanced than A5 imho. I am glad that I have used these last 8 month to learn WD instead of hoping for the Selwyn brethren to revise their decisions. WD does include the whole develoment cycle including an analysis tool and also including an installer that actually works. The product begs to be used in an object oriented way and thus lets you build from reusable code. Lots of documentation features also.

At least in the desktop department I find it so much more advanced than A5, that they are not really in the same league. WinDev is a complete suite covering the whole development cycle. You really don't need any other add on or some such - proof of this is, that there are virtually no add ons on the market for the product. It already starts with the ERD designer (called Analysis in WD world) which forms the data repository for the whole project. Also, one can do the Analysis incrementally (the click of a button, you re-generate the data files and components at will). It also got a true object oriented interface as can be seen in the style sheets, etc... Much emphasis is laid on code re-usability. Many RAD functions all around.

You can either use almost any brand of backend database or their own flavour called HyperFile which exists in two versions, Cassic SQL or Client/Server. Both are top notch and included with the product at no charge. WD talks to almost any brand of SQL server just fine as is. Re MySQL: I believe, that since they sold themselves to Oracle, MySQL isn't free anymore? Thats why a lot of WinDev'ers have switched to the free MariaDB which builds on MySQL and is fully compatible. Only if you want the so called 'native access' drivers, you do have to buy those.

I am about midpoint of a rather involved POS application and try to implement as many object oriented features as possible - but one can program procedurally just as well.

The amount of functions and genies is huge.

There is a free Express Version available for download: http://www.windev.com/windev/WD-Express.htm

HTH
[/u]
Charles
Windev has been perfect option for me.. I have got many Windev products and all are awesome.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 08:36:37 AM by GinoKeagle »